"Unhappy with delays"
Unhappy with the delays in getting a discharge package set up for care at home. It added to my stress.
Unhappy with the delays in getting a discharge package set up for care at home. It added to my stress.
Awful trying to get a review for my mum. I had to get my MP involved. The review was 2 years overdue. We now have carers come in to help.
Rubery Stroke club 22/10/2025
Rubbish. I agreed to pip as I had a stroke. Then last year they told me I had to write my PIP application again. I did this and then they said I couldn't have it. I have had to do it again . Nothing has changed so why am I suddenly not allowed it. My arm and leg doesn't work.
I'm awaiting a formal diagnosis for fibromyalgia or FND and I am wheelchair bound. I wasn't happy previously with my care package so I stopped it and then my care worker tried to get my care package back as my condition has deteriorated. I was hospitalised after this request was made but I'm not getting anywhere with it.
No support offered, trying to get a CHC plan is an actual joke.
Emergency care assessment took 7 months.
There should be more respite care. Carers need more support. I have to go to Stratford Upon Avon for respite support. I have no support for my son who is autistic either when we transitioned to adult social care. No empathy from the social worker at all she just said that he was aggressive. They're also trying to pull the plug on the direct payments but I have appealed.
Day centres closed but social workers have now sorted have sorted more activities for him.
I requested care needs for my mother and had an assessment. They said they would need to get it approved by the manager but I have not heard since. This was done last year. It's now in the hands of my councillor.
The social worker talks about our house like its bad. The social worker comes out and try take that as a given that he doesn't need support. They try to cut care packages. Things that I can do well goes against him. It felt like they weren't really there for me.
Staying in flat 12 Kings Lodge 143 Kingstanding Road West Midlands Birmingham B44 8JU
Poor communication from them. No details of a new day centre due to the regular one closing. I am trying to chase them. Never resolve any concerns or questions raised.
I want to be registered as partially sighted as I have macular degeneration. For the assessment I was given an appointment at Solihull hospital which is too far for me so they changed it to Good Hope.
I would give the social care service 1 star. The social worker asked the district nurse to visit my 89 year old mom who had dementia and hard of hearing. They came twice without informing us and left a card because my mother wasn't around. This poor communication means there is more delays in assessments now. They should also be trained in dementia awareness.
At first they were alright, really good and they sent carers out but after a while I arranged carers myself as I felt I could get better.
They're fine. The care is okay.
They did an assessment. They were the best, very professional and friendly.
The social worker is very nice. They communicate slowly as I have autism and find it hard to understand too much information at once. It can be overwhelming. They help me.
Wanting us to pay for additional care. We could do with it but we can't afford it, they're not helpful.
I had to get social care involved to get referrals to CAMHS for my 14 year old daughter. They don't do much but tick boxes as opposed to help manage her behaviour and help us with her Autism and ADHD.
They got in touch within hours to see if they could take him in and cater for his needs after he got discharged from hospital. Communication was good and we were given options of homes offered. The social worker was really helpful and had continued to be.
Two elderly parents with very different but complex care needs - over a year of trying to get a meeting with a social worker for proper assessment and advice
Told me if I wanted help I would have to pay for it. They have been useless. No help at all.
The carers that my dad had following a fall were rude. They turn up at unscheduled times. The experience is daunting so I care for him myself now. This was put in place by social services and they were rubbish.
Trying to make contact with them due to disabilities. It's difficult to get a support worker. You have to bid for housing via the computer which I am unable to do. I need a bungalow and need help negotiating the system. I've had no response from the council in three months. there are long waiting lists. The service needs to be more sensitive and supportive to people with visual impairments, it's difficult to access information. More help is needed.
I've had over 25 years of care assessments but nothing followed up, care plans etc, nothing.
They came out to make sure I was okay and had facilities to make sure house was okay. I didn't have another visit.
They're better, but every carer is different. I watch them and they listen and they do what I ask them to so that is good.
Very good. They have been good recently . They keep my daughter updated and have been happy with my care.
My 27 year old son has a care package but now they are saying we have to pay for care because they haven't carried out a DOLs assessment in years. We ask for it to be done and they ignore it and him. They say he doesn't need it. They're really unhelpful.
They're okay. They could do more and be more active, but they're busy.
Failed discharge. My dad went home and ended up back in hospital. Social services were no help and it all felt rushed with not the right things put in place
They have helped with minor adjustments. A bath lift, a raised toilet and rails. It was all arranged really quickly.
They keep changing their minds. One minute they say yes then no.
Birmingham social care knowingly puts the profoundly disabled at risk time and again. I need safeguarding from them. Nothing goes well. They have driven me to the edge of suicide they should be called we don’t care. I am in a power chair indoors and out
Ask for safeguarding and help for my autistic son.
The social worker totally abused her position of power and instead of helping or guiding me in how to get help she told me to go online and find a dr and lawyer myself and when I did she then threatened me with safeguarding and said
I should accept that my son liked and wanted to be kept in an incapacitated state fed rotten food by the carers ...
This is appalling .
She has refused to give me her full name
It's social workers like her that gave a bad name to social worker
11 social workers and not one has done anything. No communication between them. No continuity of care. It's proved my point that there is no point the system has gone down the drain. They only thing that has happened is an OT was sent out to see how to change the bathroom.
I had an uncaring woman dealing with me. I have severe osteoarthritis in my spine and hip and am in alot if pain. I'm sleeping on the floor in my living room.
Also it's needed for another person who constantly upstairs, he's in heart failure. This lady suggested he doesn't need one because he won't be coming downstairs. I was so upset I hung up.
My son who is severely disabled goes to Fairway Day centre everyday for a couple of hours and it gives me some time for myself. He likes it there. He gets lots of help and I get the time for myself to help my mind.
The social worker has been so helpful for my 25 year old son who is severely disabled. They arranged for some support before covid but he didn't get chance to go. After, when everything started opening up again she contacted me and arranged for my son to go to a day centre for an hour a day. She even pushed for more hours for him. She explained everything to me so well and looked after us all so well. I am so thankful for them.
When asked to see the new social worker they disregard my queries about mums care. They disregarded my moms condition and won't look into them even when I ask them to.
They are saying that the financial situation isn't going to affect services but lots of people waiting have made referrals back in March. 6-8 month wait. It's such a long wait.
I haven't found any issues with them. I find them helpful. I have been getting the support from them too.
They took my sister away whilst I was in hospital for 5 days as mom was elderly and she couldn't care for her. They didn't tell us where she was going. I had to call the police to find out where she was taken. They didn't communicate well or let us know anything. It is amazing how someone else can have a say on someone's care. It's not fair.
It took 3 months to visit me. They asked if I wanted to go into a care home, if I has a pension and what my income was. They were a waste of time. My daughter will look at the financial side of it. The Alzheimer team told me I wont be able to cope with my condition at the end of the line. Home care is expensive, £1000 per week, but the visitor did not discuss that with us in this regard. We do not know what we need to do with the financial side of it. We cannot afford long term care and now we have to wait for the next social worker to come out, but we don't know anything about waiting times.
Several contacts were made regarding needs not being met, care plan not being delivered and re-assessment required after there was no initial review when the care was first started (process not being followed). After months of getting nowhere, resorted to making a formal complaint and was asked to agree to informal. Stated that the opportunity for informal had been pending for 6 months and this was the only way to get the needed re-assessment.
One minute they're helpful the next minute they're not. They will send me here and there and everywhere I go they don't know what's going on. They are not very good at keeping me in the know.
One social worker there ruined my whole life. They left the organisation. They ended up sharing trauma with people who shouldn't have known. I ended up homeless because of them.
My son was referred by his mental health team back in January 2022 for an assessment that HAS to be completed by a social worker in order for him to move into supported housing. We were contacted in September 2022 to advise there was still a wait but a Social Worker would be assigned by January 2023. It's October 2023 and despite two PCN professionals chasing them for the last 3+months we have heard nothing from them. Every time one of those professionals makes contact by phone they are told that an urgent message will be sent to the duty team. Calls are not returned. Emails sent by them go unanswered.
I am absolutely traumatised with social service's . They have made me and my sister suffer extremely appalling disturbing. I have cried cried for years having breakdowns due to not having the Right support. I urge a serious action to be taken and our experiences to be compensated. Alongside with urgent attention on this diabolical experience endured.
The social worker allocated to dad was useless. He was recently assessed by the social worker, the process needs to more streamlines. The social workers should be able to give more of a guide on the process of moving a family member to a care home, they could have been more helpful.
They only just spoke to me last week. They said they will get me a support worker and back into day centres. It's just a waiting game to see what they say but can't help that.
Social worker didn't book an interpreter for someone who was from Afghanistan, they said they couldn't book an interpreter last minute even though the appointment was booked well in advance. The social worker got a member of staff to gesture to the client to see if they would understand but there were several language barriers in place.
They noticed my son has autism traits and have referred him on to get tests. They're very good and are very much on top of things.
I am under social care since 2018. Not happy with how they assign social worker and approve annual personal allowance. Very difficult to contact them, they don’t reply back.
They said that I should take my children to hospital with me when I was ill or leave them with a neighbour I don’t know. If I was to leave them, they would have to notify social services. They advised this retrospectively.
Wouldn’t give me funds to attend day centers for mental health support. Kept trimming me down and said I wasn’t entitled to anything. You have to keep plodding with them.
Never turned up for any meetings, everything was over the phone and left us in a mess. I thought the council is going to pay for my sons day care, found out last week that we have to pay £102 a week by the way my son only goes for 2 days still have to pay £102. I can’t sleep at night tried, left so many messages to speak to another social worker no one got back to me please help.
Mother in law in care home who contacted social care about need for CHCA. Locum SW turned up unannounced and said she agreed but didn’t think it was up to her to make a referral. Explained nothing to family about what is involved in CHCA or its implications. They have no idea what will happen next. Meantime the home is saying it cannot provide for the rapidly deteriorating needs of my mother in law. Come on BCC - this is the stuff of nightmares that you have assured all would never happen again in B’ham. People suffering through a combination of neglect and poor communication. Be clear and act in a timely fashion with workers that know what they are doing. Help my mother in law!
Came to see me when I ended up in hospital. They asked me some questions to see if I could cope at home. They were good, some questions were pointless, but they were okay.
I have social worker provided by the council and he knows sign language, which is good and helpful.
Had to complain about the service not being given to my son. Social worker who didn’t action care, didn’t respond and still doesn’t while he’s on 117 aftercare.
Community support officer, put in touch with OT to get monkey rail for wife.
I'm waiting to hear from them. I was told the hospital will get in touch with them once I'm discharged. I don't know when that will be or if they can get me a support worker like before.
The social worker who was a student was really good. They went next door to ask if they knew anything after friend had a fall. She then got in touch with the occupational therapist who got all the equipment my friend needed, within the week. They were really really good.
Ages to get assessed, so go private.
My experience with the social workers has been up and down lately but more positive now I'm out of foster placement and I have more independence. I can go where I want. It's still ongoing with them and they have been really helpful lately. In the beginning they were useless.
The occupation therapy team said they'd come out to assess my daughter with autism and they said because of covid they'd have to do it over the phone. A while later the nurse came out and said that the home was not suitable for my daughter.
I have learning difficulties, so I was given a social worker, they took me to one place and didn't stay with me to help me. It's not easy to get hold of them either. I suffer with depression. When I do get in touch, they fob you off.
The day centre is alright. I like painting and colouring. I like mixing with everyone.
I come three times a week. I like doing drawing and colouring. I like meeting people here at the day centre.
I like it at the day centre, I like all my friends. I like painting and colouring.
I like doing activities at the day centre, like football, cricket, and doing keep active with the parachute and bean bags
I like reading and writing and shredding paper at the day centre
I do a lot of helpful jobs like office tasks and I take pictures and I like going on the iPads at the day centre
I like coming all the time. I like my friends. I like the games, skittles, keep fit. I help set it up on the telly, I play the drums.
I like meeting different people. I like all of the activities, bingo, quiz's and quiz's, I also like the staff.
I don't like coming here. Sometimes I like it, I liked being in some classes. I liked using my speak and spell.
I like it here, I do keep fit and I like the music. I like my friends and staff. I like the activitites.
I like bowling, music, disco. I like my friends. I like everyone at the day centre.
It's alright, I come her 5 days a week. I like going for walks down the valley. I like doing football if it's not raining.
I like coming here, I get on with my friends. I like making things like pillows. We had a party on Friday and I helped people.
There seems to be a lack of communication with the social workers. They change and no one informs you. I feel like the professional needs to know your background and history.
I like to play pool and play darts. I also like to play cricket whilst at the day centre.
I like coming here, I like everything. I like seeing my friends. I like when we do the 'walk away' activity where we go to local parks.
I like to see my friends. The staff are good, they listen to me. It's good.
Alright
I like to work in the kitchen, clean the windows and do gardening. I get on well with everyone and have no problems.
I like it and it's good. I like the activities, especially drama and working in the cafe.
Good.
It's nice, I get to see my friends.
It's good. You can have meals together, you can share the tables now since covid. I can play games. I'm excited to watch the commonwealth games.
The mini bus comes to pick me up. I like doing the gardening. We have our own little plots and I'm growing cucumbers, sweetcorn and spring onions.
My friends are here and I like the staff. I like coming here.
I like coming to the centre to do sewing and arts. I also like going on the computers, making jewellery and taking part in lots of the activities.
I do like coming here. I do bowling, drawing, exercise and colouring. I also like talking to my friends.
I like coming to the day centre. I like my friends and the activities that we do. My favorite activity is bowling and i also like the discos and pop quizzes.
I like painting and art. We also get to use the computers and take part in signing and dancing. It's great.
I enjoy coming to the centre. I enjoy the activities such as bowling, chair hockey, dancing and I like doing word searches and colouring.
I am very happy with the staff. I like using the service.
I only come on Monday's, but I love coming here.
They seem alright, I like working with the staff, it gets me out of the house. I love coming here.
We had a jubilee day at the day centre, I really enjoyed it. We also had food and a party, it was very good.
It's really good here, I like the staff and I like my friends here. I like to play bingo and share with everyone.
I missed coming to the day centre when it was closed during Covid, i'd miss it if it wasn't here. The virus made me nervous to come back but i'm glad to be back with all my friends.
I like coming to the day centre. It helps me to get out of my home, meet my friends and get out into the community. I like playing basketball and football whilst at the the centre.
Treat us inhumanely. Put me at risk time and time again. I need safeguarding from Birmingham social services. They are dire and evil. No care, or compassion or treating like human beings very fragile human beings. I wouldn't treat an animal like they treat the disabled. There is zero accountability. I sent an email weeks ago to the director of social services no reply. There is zero accountability.
mums 88 on her own, cant walk, getting no help whatsoever, phone never answ3r calls
i have contact them last December 2021 to discuss care and direct payment regard my father but no response at all and tried this month May 2022 still did not contact me or reply
I've been trying to get my disabled son in a day care centre for about three years now he's been accessed three times now but each time the social worker assigned to him leaves and the whole process has to be done again I have never had to deal with such a incompetent department of Birmingham city council in the 22 years of my son's life when he was under the childrens department it was brilliant I've been given excuse after excuse from no day centers being available so I found three and I've been trying since to get help with this for the past 12 months you now longer can speak to duty officer you have to go through a call center what are you supposed to do to get help from this department I'm really at Witt's end.
Social workers have worked remotely at home throughout the entire pandemic. I believe this impacts directly on patient care and nursing resources.
My son and I were victims of harassment by the Birmingham social services. They covered up for those who harmed my son and committed crimes. My son was suicidal due to the harassment we received from the social services. We had to move away to another town. 3 malicious allegations were made to the social services and those responsible of making those allegations were the ones who harmed my son I have evidence. Do not trust this department even the Ofsted inspector called them a national disgrace. They were also investigated by channel 4 dispatches investigation team. The social services are dishonest and not trustworthy they ruin innocent children's lives and get involved in littering their health records with lies too and harassing the whole family . They are more like homewreckers, they split the family apart. I have never met anyone as evil as them. I didn't even know evil existed until I met them. I'd rather respect a dog who is more loyal and loving to a human being than a human will ever be. Quote: study carefully the character of the one you recommend, lest their misconduct bring you shame.
i've been in supported accomendation for four and a half years. birmingham social services never listen to me, are very often disrespectful, rude, and are quite ableising. my notes always contradict what they promise. my current care home manager is shocked how my now old social worker has conducted herself so badly. i am intimidated and frightend to use that service as they always fail me. equality, diversity, respect is never in their remit. im so disappointed. (please excuse the spelling errors as i'm dyslexic).
Last year when trying to get help for my mother with heart failure and worsening dementia , had no response at all from adult social services when contacting them , and when she was in hospital we waited Weeks for a social worker to contact us about her going into care , then Mom would be medically unfit by time something sorted ended up getting COVID in hospital and died without any family around . I don’t feel it is right for people to wait weeks for a response it would speed hospital discharge and help struggling families.
Prize Draw Data
Wasn’t informed about payment until 6 weeks after care started was suppose to receive 14 hours care a week didn’t even get that in month, never contacted relatives when I fell bruising all my face, never contacted relatives when couldn’t get in(even after telling me they had) falsely documented times in book when said they had visited twice but only came once. As an ex registered nurse who worked in care for over 25 years i am appalled at the care I received
Mother has Advanced Dementia and contacted service regarding available support.
The emphasis is on how expensive me and my care package are not on me and how I could actually contribute if I was given the right support.
Ebrook Day Centre was closed over a year ago. Very little substitute service has been provided in its place. From a users point of view, it has left a gaping hole in coping with the global changes endured by everybody. From their point of view it has been life changing and yet adult social care has just seen everything from providers point of view and been concerned with material matters like cleaning, etc.
Home care delivered was supportive it was very much person-centered and need-based. It involved both social and health care which was co -jointed and collaboratively planned and delivered. It took into consideration me the carer's views. A particular feature of the care delivered was that it targeted the needs and priorities of the user along the care and support pathway along the stages of the dementia and alzhiemers condition of the patient
Shockingly slow in any response and you have to constantly chase them up.
Very unhelpful and unsympathetic
In a word terrible.
Direct Payments Issue, Not able to have a contact that you can get answers from Duty officer is different every time.
Absolutely shocking, They made me feel like a criminal for helping my next door neighbour as he had no family, he was End of Life, they made his last few weeks a misery when he should have been at peace, I was not allowed to be with him at the end and then a day later they said everything was fine with what I had been doing. Absolutely heartbreaking.
I know it is difficult but there needs to be a designated Social Worker for people to contact not just the duty officer at the time who cant know you or you them.Also both the Finance and Social workers need to be "joined up"so that at least there is a contact.
I can't thank them enough they helped me a lot.
This service has let me down, after an assessment, where I showed I could not have a bath, and I was having to strip wash myself, I was told that there was no money available ( 2019) and was provided with a flimsy plastic seat ( which has never been used as it's useless ) I still continue to strip wash as I can't due to disability to get into the bath. Terrible.
My two disabled sons have been provided 15 hours to go outside with a social worker.it is good opportunity for them to go outside and socially interact with others.
am trying to get a social worker allocated to my sister to start process to get a suitable care home allocated for her as my parents are in their 80's and unable to continue to care for her
Wasn’t informed about payment until 6 weeks after care started was suppose to receive 14 hours care a week didn’t even get that in month, never contacted relatives when I fell bruising all my face, never contacted relatives when couldn’t get in(even after telling me they had) falsely documented times in book when said they had visited twice but only came once. As an ex registered nurse who worked in care for over 25 years i am appalled at the care I received
The street is infested with rats and rubbish is regularly dumped on the street. The streets are never cleaned and the dumped rubbish piles 6ft high before its taken away. Abysmal.
They have refused to fit a shower even when they know I cannot use the bath due to mobility problems I have to try to keep myself clean by strip washing, and I have an incontinence problem.
We have never been allocated a permanent Social Worker so any questions are put to whoever is on duty that day and they don't always get back to you or you get someone who doesn't know your circumstances, and they fob you off.
OT Service unhelpful and found worker very obnoxious and did not listen at all to me or my mothers difficulties. Still had no assessment from social care. Never been offered a carers assessment. The man who did phone didn’t know what he was doing.
I have to deal with court appointee they think they are a law onto themselves
I felt that I was having to do all the chasing around and to raise concerns regarding safeguarding.
Short staffed and not enough people who actually Care. vulnerable adults and children are not getting the right support.
Me and my wife are suffering from Dementia and Alzheimer’s. Our social care allowance (Funding) was stopped in December 2019. I appealed against the decision and was following it up with no response. Now they say service has been suspended for the community. They need to improve their customer services and communication with people who need quick help and support.
dad say sorry to me sept dint say sorry he said drag me out front door break me half mom let step dad come front me shouting hurt me
Online survey questionnaire: What has worked well for you during lockdown?
Answer: Government registration enabled access to online food delivery. This also meant that a telephone call was received from Birmingham city council offering help and the offer of a food parcel and assistance to collect medicine. Regular e mails have also been received from local councillor with excellent up to date information. I have accessed free ebooks from Birmingham library service thanks to this.
I have been a carer for 20 years
I'm a crime Investigater. I investigate crimes when the justice system fails to do so. My son was a victim in the hands of the Birmingham social services. They covered up for the people who harmed my son. My son's been ill for past 9 years I hold them responsible for the harm and damage caused. Due to the harassment my son and I received from malicious visits from the social services and the adult social services we had to leave our town and move away. The damage that they've caused my son is done. The shocking thing is the social services manager was involved in this horrific crime. If I want I can take this matter live on media and expose them for the crimes they've Committed .I have sent all the evidence to a judge I know in court who is aware of what the social services did and of their crimes. They went to that length that they littered my son's health records, his social services records with lies to cover up for those responsible of harming my son. No child is in safe hands with this company . I do not want any other victim to suffer in the hands of this dishonest Company. No investigation was ever carried out . It was all a cover up.
Absolutely disgusting service from both the Social Worker and the customer service and contact centre. I called on behalf of my elderly Mother and Father in Law. My Mother in Law is full time carer to my my Father In Law who has advanced stage Parkinsons and Dementia and is being cared for at home. My Mother In Law has been unable to leave the house unless she can get a trusted family member to sit with him. She wouldn't entertain him going into a care home because he wouldnt be getting the quality of care that he receives at home. We contacted the social worker at Birmingham Adult Services, to ask if my Mother In Law could get some respite so she could go out to the shops and have a few hours a week to give her a much needed rest. From the offset, this social worker (Mercy) was obstructive and rude to me, my husband and my Mother in law. She spoke over me and interrupted me constantly. She said that my father in law should be in a home, and put the phone down on my husband accusing him of 'not caring about his father' When I rang the 0121 303 1234 number to complain about this appalling treatment, I was left in a queue for hours, then when the phone was answered I was promised a call back from a duty manager the same day, but this never happened and despite calling again and again, we have still had no callback. In the meantime, my Mother and Father In Law are left without support or any progress made. Such a sad situation when they are elderly, in their 80's and have worked all their lives, never asked for any help and to be made to feel like they are not entitled is disgraceful.
Following a trumped up case of safeguarding alleged by housing officer I was visited by social worker. I did not need safeguarding and ii am not hoarding. Surely they have more urgent cases of child, elderly, disabled abuse, homelessness, to deal with.
Our community needs more free excess to gyms and getting active opportunities. Please help us to overcome inactivity by engaging us and by providing us with more free excess to such facilities.
Bad bad no help at all might as well nit bother 6 reffal and yet no help at all
My husband has a rare genetic disorder and he has just had an operation for his hand as he was not been able to use the hand at all. He can’t lift anything or put any pressure on his hands, therefore we need specialist equipment to allow him to be more independent in the house. We have asked the occupational therapy team to install special taps so he can get water by himself, but they have refused saying they have no funding to do that. We’ve had to go to charities to beg for them to help with equipment like hot water tap as he can’t lift the kettle. My husband also suffers from poor mental health so all of this is adding to the stress. We have some equipment such as electric bath lift but would also need additional hand reel, but if they are not able to provide the service then it is not helpful.
My mom returned to UK to find out she had been out of the country to long to receive most benefits, my sister had to remortgae her home and now a year later is still in debt.
I've had many people come and they just fill in numerous forms and then tell me to go online and see what support I would like, but I don't have time to do that. We get attendance allowance, the only helpful service from the council was the benefit advisor. I would benefit from a day centre where we could go, the only one I found costs £45 a day. How am I support to know what I want if I am not being told about it? I was told about a lunch club, that was way too far for us to access. You just feel like another number in the sheet, another tick, another person dealt with. I don't know if I have had a carer's assessment.
Discharge team at QE Hospital gave wrong information regarding home care, it's not free and is now means tested. This caused a great deal of upset when social worker (facilitator) informed us 3 weeks later. We were handed lots of leaflets to read and verbal information which is hard to absorb/comprehend then told to 'make a decision' in a day. Social worker unhelpful, confrontational, almost bullying to the point I complained her manager. No one seems to know what they are doing and lacks person centred approach. Very distressing experience indeed.